GTD for ADHD & Neurodivergent Minds: Making Getting Things Done Work for You - Ep. 81

Robert Peake (00:03.648)
So welcome everyone to another Change Your Game with GTD podcast. My name is Robert Peake and as ever, I'm here with Todd Brown.

Todd Brown (00:12.6)
Hello everyone.

Robert Peake (00:13.9)
Hey Todd. And in this podcast series, our goal is to help you on your journey to individual effectiveness by exploring some of the principles around a methodology called getting things done or GTD. It's helped many thousands of individuals and we're both very much dedicated practitioners. And we, we teach this stuff, live and kind of breathe this stuff.

So the goal here is to help you be able to focus on the things in your life that matter most to you, to reduce distraction and noise, to know what is noise and what is signal, and to ultimately improve not only your effectiveness at work and in your life, but your overall wellbeing. And so today we have a special guest with us. It's always fun and always a pleasure to see you in particular.

So Eanna is working in financial markets as a long time GTD practitioner. Both Todd and I have had the pleasure of working with him in the past. He's based in Cork in the Republic of Ireland in the southernmost part. Eanna, yeah, I think maybe I'll just turn it over to you for a minute to kind of introduce yourself, say whatever you'd like to say about your journey with GTD.

Eanna (01:40.746)
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, my journey GTD, I came across the book, the great book itself in a bookshop one time in the top 10 business, picked it up and said, I could do with this assistance. And yeah, I read it and it's fantastic. It was brilliant. I probably took away five percent of it. But I remember thinking, the two minute rule. Wow. That's that's a game changer. And many years ago, so that was the biggest relevance for me. And it was one of those books that I kind of.

I I reread it once or twice and took a little bit more and it was kind of, yeah, just a great interest in it. Really was. And then I remember coming across, think it may have been the one and only time, Todd, you did a course in Ireland, in Dublin, was it, many years ago? That's right. So I was lucky enough to see that. So I attended that level one course in Dublin, which is brilliant. It gave me great insights into it. That was fantastic.

Todd Brown (02:23.81)
Right? That's right.

Eanna (02:37.065)
And then I think about a year after doing that, maybe two, I attended the level two in Edinburgh, again, with yourself Todd, which was fantastic and got great insights into it. So it kind of filled in a lot of the gaps that the book wasn't kind of making clear to me. And then I continued on the journey and I think another year or two later when I was ready, I did level three in London. And I think level three had just maybe come out at the time or been rejigged. was a few years ago now, but.

I remember it was kind of interesting and it was at that stage very interesting to meet people because that level three you're meeting some connoisseurs of GTD. So that was quite very good. But I have to admit, the level three one I felt a little bit of strange as being like, these other people are really getting this. I'm not quite so. So it was interesting. It was very interesting. Like I remember, I got to always look at GTD for my work, especially.

But when at the level three, people were embracing it for everything, for home, you name it. It was all encompassing. And I remember being a bit in awe of that and kind of a of imposter syndrome kicking in here because I'm definitely not that at level. So the three courses were brilliant. I probably reread the book every year or so trying to understand more of it and trying to embrace little bits and things like the waiting for like that was another like, you know, just small things, I think, that really kind of help you keep on top of things.

And then I suppose I've been lucky in my job that I've kind of been able to pick what training I do. I've been able to do the courses. So then I was able, probably two years ago now, to get some coaching. So I did some coaching with Todd in London. So we did, think, some time together. And what was really good, again, with that I found was like the, when you read the book and the course, it's very, know, a bottom-up approach. But from talking to Todd beforehand, we did a top-down, which was brilliant.

was really what I needed because it's kind of like, you know, looking at the higher level, the kind of values. Yeah, just, you know, where I wanted to be in 15, 20 years time. And being honest, that was something I'd never really thought about. You know, and a lot of people have five year vision and things like that, and I'd never done it. So that was a real pleasure to kind of look at that. And yeah, it was a bit of a game changer because the thing that came out of that for me was

Todd Brown (04:43.166)
Thank

Eanna (05:00.297)
by actually sitting down and talking through it and especially doing what someone else is doing. That's the benefit of coaching. know, some of these things are hard to do on your own, by sitting down and looking at visualization, which again is something I've always struggled with visualization. So we were able to have a good discussion about where I'd like to be and, you know, picture myself on a beach 20 years time, that kind of thing. And I suppose I didn't even really put projects around or anything, but what I do look at now, even two years later is.

the things that we looked at the five year and three year level. Quite a few of them have happened just because we wrote them down in a mind map. We put them there. We put some projects. I might have even looked at them, but the subconscious kind of kicked in. So that was excellent. That was really, really good. And we did that coaching. I found that really beneficial. And then I suppose on my journey, then about less than a year ago, I was diagnosed with ADHD. So

At that stage then know Todd you had said to me previously, on our first coaching I said, I suspect I may have this kind of, I'm at that age where I'm learning from my kids as we do and they're a lot more knowledgeable about neurodivergency and a lot of things I was learning from them and you had said to me, right, that Robert did some coaching for neurodivergent people. So at that stage then was able to, after my diagnosis, reach out and do some coaching with Robert, which was very different.

brilliant because it's very different approach again that Robert takes where we kind of assessed where I was at and we were able to go to weekly coaching which was really kind of suited me because it gave you kind of weekly, gave you accountability, gave me homework, gave me little check-ins and it kind of gave me a structure I needed and it was a very different approach. So that's kind of got me to where we were and I think Robert

We were working up till, God, I'm trying to keep track, but now maybe this, yeah, a few months ago, maybe five or six months ago, we stopped working. So yeah, that's kind of my GTD journey. And actually, sorry, I should add, one of the great things then that Robert did as well was seeing the accountability that I craved from like that, weekly coaching, he put me in touch then with some other people who were GTDers, and I now do a weekly review on Friday morning, 7 a.m.

Eanna (07:27.263)
to 9am which to me sounded like horror, right? But even my wife agrees now. I get up early, I do 7 to 9am with two other GTDers, review, and I actually for the first time ever in my career leave the office on time on a Friday. So she does not give out. So that's the thing. It's the benefit she sees because it's literally, I would never leave the office on time on Friday. I would leave on a Friday evening feeling like, ugh, I'm not on top of things.

I haven't got my tasks under control. I'm afraid of what email's gonna bite me. Whereas now, coming in seven to nine, not looking at emails and just focusing on that with two others. And we just work, you know, on mute basically, on our own things. And then it just means I can get out of the office at five o'clock on a Friday. So I think for that alone, my wife, thanks you Robert.

Robert Peake (08:17.259)
Excellent, excellent. Well, yeah, sometimes those external reference points are so helpful, right? You you don't realize how much benefit you're getting until someone else says, hey, you're different. And I think Todd, you have a wonderful story about that yourself in terms of coming to GTD. So one of the themes I hear is really about making GTD work for you, the kind of the way your mind works. I'd be curious if you could unpack

Eanna (08:31.795)
Yeah.

Robert Peake (08:47.091)
that maybe a little, because I think our listeners are always very keen to understand that for themselves. you know, sort of what about GTD helps you very particularly, and maybe what, you know, the ways in which tweaking the process within the spirit of GTD have helped you kind of embrace it more.

Eanna (09:04.393)
Yeah.

Eanna (09:10.421)
So, yeah, I think it's all about tweaking because as you were saying, when you read the book, it's like this is the manual, this is how you do it. And it's kind of like, oh, I can only do parts of it and you feel like a failure. And I think a big part of our coaching, Robert, was, you know, progress over perfection. And to me, it was all about tweaking it and seeing how I worked. So we knew some things worked very well for me. You know, the two minute rule, the waiting for, you know, those were brilliant. But then it was about moving on to projects. And for me, I kind of.

I find it hard to visualize a project and all the tasks that go with it. And I struggle to see things linearly. So it was very much working with you and saying, OK, for me, mind maps are how I work. OK, so I everything goes on to a mind map. My ideas will just be, you know, page of a mind map, got 50 ideas on it. Right. And then I have another mind map that's kind of a project ideas and tasks and things. So it was about us working together and saying, well, well, what works for me?

It's not what the book says you have to do a certain way. It's about taking tools and applying them to how you think, how your mind works. So that was a big game changer for me that we were able to work with the mind maps that I loved and then take them and kind of apply them to my system. So I'm in a Microsoft land. So it was Microsoft to do and we were able say, okay, here's my task, here are my projects, but let's link it to the mind maps where I do my thinking. So I found that a huge benefit to me.

Todd Brown (10:32.59)
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. it's something that we talk about this a fair bit, but it's absolutely worth revisiting. One of the, I think, important things about GTD and one of the sources of its success over the years is that, as we always say, are, number one, technology agnostic. We really don't care whether the technology that you're using is the Microsoft Suite.

is the Google Suite is something that is made by somebody else, as you mentioned mind maps. So the key is that you have the sense as you're making your way through your day that the system that you're using is, if you're sort of boiling it down, number one, it allows you to get stuff off of your mind and to review the system in ways that are helpful in terms of informing your priority choices. And that's all absolutely key. But at the same time, and I think I'm quoting you here, Robert

It allows you to operate at the speed of thought. So what you absolutely do want is a sense of seamless interaction with your system as you make your way through your day. And I really love what you've said about, because those really are two very different worlds, aren't they? On the one hand, if you think about a mind map, and for those of you who might not know that term, also sometimes referred to as spider diagrams, the sort of nodes which have subnodes that come off of them, great.

great tool used by lots of people for lots of things, brainstorming typically, a lot of people use mind maps for that. But on the one hand, there's that, is more, if you think about the psychological engagement with that, it's more about an associative tool. yeah, that reminds me and that reminds me and that reminds me that reminds me. And you can create those connections visually versus something like Microsoft To Do, which you've talked about, which is more about

It falls into the category of classic list manager. That's the basic philosophy that it's built on. And everything that you've said, what that just reminds me of is, hey, this is what we're trying to do. We're trying to close the gap between the GTD best practices. Don't leave things in your head. Make sure you've got a good external system that you trust, those kinds of things.

Todd Brown (12:55.406)
and make all of that work in ways that work for you and in the tools that you like to use.

Eanna (13:01.929)
Yeah, I agree exactly. is something I think is like if I describe it, it's a bit like the popcorn going off in your head when you have ideas. So sometimes it's kind of hard to slow it all down. And that's why for me, a mind map works. I can just throw those 50 ideas down there if I'm in that mode of thinking and just come back to them later.

Robert Peake (13:10.303)
Okay.

Robert Peake (13:21.639)
And you know, you don't want to slow the popcorn down. It's very useful to have that going at speed. So this weird metaphor came to mind, but bear with me. think it works. When I was doing my Master of Fine Arts degree in poetry, there was a quote that would come back to us often by a poet named William Matthews. Because young starting out knew

Eanna (13:28.852)
Yes.

Robert Peake (13:47.852)
poets, we love to write and there's something called the white hot heat of writing, right? You know, it's just that engagement with the moment and you're writing and you're in the flow and it's wonderful. But then there's waking up the next morning and looking back at the poem and the quote that William Matthews said, revision, as in going back and editing work you've written, isn't cleaning up after the party. It is the party. And more and more we came to realize what that meant was

The white hot heat of writing is exciting and important that you're fast and loose and free and in your best mode as a poet, as a writer, associating, thinking, getting it all out there. But where the real magic happens of a poem going from interesting to amazing is in then going back in a much slower mode in a different mode. And it's less natural maybe.

but it's where you get the kind of the ultimate results of something really good, really polished that really has an impact on someone else rather than just you, because you know what you meant at the time you wrote it. So for me, likewise, I need to give myself in writing in various modes, the ability to go big with the spider diagram, to get it all out there and to not limit, not edit, not censor, not.

try and make that structured, but just to make that structure the way that it comes out. Then though, what I find is there is, there is value in the linear approach. There is value in the short list that I can work from that day and refer back to continually to remind myself as I go off and all the various things I'm doing that day and meetings and sidetracks and whatever to anchor me back to, okay, what are the options I said, you know, that I have for this day?

Having a simple flat list for that helps me anchor back to that. So for me, it's that dance between what's natural and then a complimentary activity that's maybe not natural, but still necessary and effective. And over time, I've come to actually, I think, embrace that the same way I've come to actually embrace the sort of editing and revising process, even though it's maybe in some ways less fun.

Robert Peake (16:09.599)
than generating new material. I've come to love the impact of that, if that kind of makes sense. I don't know if that, I don't know if I've gone too far off the deep end of poetry to make sense there.

Eanna (16:17.109)
It does actually. Yeah. No, because you've actually one of the things I was complimented on one of my favorite podcast episodes you two have done is actually one which I listened to last night and I sometimes listen to it when I'm a bit overwhelmed and like that just a lot of my place felt like I could have said it to the weekly reviews this week, we have done with daily reviews and I didn't do it in my case. So I felt a bit.

But I got my weekly review done this morning and I feel better and I'm smiling again. But listening to the episode last night, the one I like is you guys talk about what happens if you don't do GTD. You have an episode where one of your clients said to you about, I just don't have time for this. And it's a brilliant episode because I find whenever I'm feeling overwhelmed, it kind of listen to that and go, well, if I don't do GTD, just imagine how bad the world's going to be. And like that, what you're saying there, Robert, about, you know, the different

You dance in your mind's popcorn ideas. And it is challenging to slow down sometimes and get linear and figure out what's top tier for the day. And I think Todd, you, in that episode, you actually said something, which is very true. said it's, you know, we all go so fast during the day inboxes go, go, It actually is challenging to slow down and take time to reflect. And I do that now, even what you said there, which is very true, Robert. So like for me, a day that goes well, I am very digital person. Okay.

but I have a whiteboard on my desk and on that desk go in the three priorities for the morning. Okay. And the other part of it will have my meetings to remind me what meetings I have to be at prepared. And then what I'll do down the bottom is I'll have a little place where I keep score of my pomodoros. So one of the big things I have is a struggle with time. So as we were saying, the biggest tool I use is analog. So I have my pomodoro usually counting down and I will track how many of those do I do in it.

day. So a good day for me, I can actually look back and say I managed, you know, five pomodoros and I got the task done on the whiteboard. So I always come back to what's right in front of me where I can see it. So it's you know, because sometimes if you don't see it, it doesn't exist.

Todd Brown (18:28.91)
You know, as you're talking about your situation and I'm just also reflecting on what you just said, Robert, it occurs to me that and I know before before we hit record on this session, one of the things that you were talking about was this this tension that you sometimes feel between and I'm not quite using your words, but sort of the Microsoft to do world and the mind map world. Right. And you felt as though and again, don't let me put words in your mouth, but you felt as though there was a there's a tension there.

in that you feel more drawn to the mind map as a tool to use. It seems to somehow engage you more. And what this takes me back to, the thought that this takes me back to is when I was getting certified as a GTD coach back in the Victorian era, and by the way, hello to Meg Edwards. If you're listening, Meg, thank you as always for all of your inspirational work over the years. But one of the things that Meg always used to talk about was the importance of having

reminders that engage us, right? She said, the way she used to put it to me was, look, they're basically just two possibilities. Either you're drawn to your lists or you're not, right? And at the time, she was using that in a conversation that we were having primarily about the way that we were using language in defining our reminders, right? So having good, clear, crisp next actions, outcome statements, right? So what are, know, what is the language that you're using?

But at the same time, just occurs to me that absolutely the same thing applies to the tool that you're using. So if you've got the best reminders in the world, and they're sitting in a tool that doesn't engage you, or a tool that you feel like, it doesn't really work for me anymore, then that's going to get in the way of you being effective with this. And I'll just say one more thing, and this is totally coincidental.

But just in the last week, I have made a change in my own system. I've gone back to a piece of software that I used many, many years ago. And it has been really interesting how I've watched myself go through the process of sort of engaging or re-engaging with this new tool and coming up with and sort of watching myself react to it. And it's really interesting. And there's always, I think, value in, again, using the core principles always as kind of our touchstones.

Todd Brown (20:50.21)
But being open to, whether it's using the tool you've got in different ways, or possibly could be, using brand new tools, it can really open your mind to ways that, well, it's just another form, making these kinds of modifications to your ways of working your tools. It's just another form of being kind to your future self, which is ultimately what GTD is all about.

Eanna (21:10.877)
It was very, very interesting because when I got my diagnosis for ADHD, one of the doctors said to me, it's kind of like high functioning. And I went, what do you mean? And she explained to me and she said, well, tell me what tools you use to get through the day. And I went, OK, I got Pomodoro timer. I got a whiteboard, noise canceling headphones, game changer, standing desk. And she just laughed and went, that is high functioning. You have all the tools that you use. And one of the things I

realised and it ties in exactly what you said is over the years I've used many tools that have worked and I've forgotten about them. And what I've done now is I've gone back and said, you know what, what once worked for me, let's try it again. So I've re-embraced and I said, literally gone back to that now. And you know, I have the analogue clock on my desk cause I realised digital just doesn't work for me. I have the Pomodoro with the visual red counting down. So I can actually say, can I stay focused on a task for 15 minutes sometimes? Sometimes it's 25. It depends on how, what brain.

how tired it is. So I 100 % agree with you. Go back to things that worked in the past and try them again.

Robert Peake (22:17.515)
I think a great point to make for anyone out there working on this idea of progress over perfection with their own GTD systems. If you need permission to make it work for you in the ways it works, you have that if you ever needed it, I think from all of us very much so. And interesting, you talked about the idea of high functioning.

Eanna (22:27.401)
Yeah.

Robert Peake (22:47.007)
Increasingly one of the things I'm hearing about in the kind of neurodiversity community is not so much how you're functioning, but what support do you need? What's the level of support you need to do what you want to do in your life? And I think more and more, you know, as people with, know, whose minds work differently in various ways come to GTD, they realize it's a tremendous form of self support, right? That you, that you.

Eanna (22:55.391)
Yeah.

Eanna (23:12.361)
Fantastic. got, yeah.

Robert Peake (23:14.015)
You know, that it's a way, it's a, it's a whole comprehensive methodology, but it's not also one size fits all, right? You also need the standing desk, the Pomodoro, the whatever, whatever works for you works for you. So this idea that support is, twofold. It comes from how you support yourself. And also of course, then learning about yourself enough to ask, ask for support from others, you know, in ways that are going to work for both of you to adjust so that you can really.

Eanna (23:21.811)
Yeah.

Robert Peake (23:43.595)
You can't just get what you want out of life, right? That's kind of what it all... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eanna (23:46.518)
I mean, that's what you and I did, Robert. Like we explored the first week or two of coaching was brilliant because it was very much, you doing some tests and some just talking as well and then figuring out, OK, you know, what kind of style of thinking or working are you? So, you know, to me, what you did is analogous to what an occupational therapist would do. They'd literally sit down and go, what works for you, as you said, is what can support you. So that's what I thought was fantastic. And the coaching we did was brilliant.

Robert Peake (24:14.827)
Great, great. we're bizarrely enough, we're coming, my Pomodoro tells me we're coming to time here. It's flown by because we're about to, yeah, there you go. Yeah, synchronize your Pomodoro timers, everyone. know, it's flown by, absolutely. think, I think for me, Todd, you know, any, any parting thoughts along the lines of being kind to your future self, no matter how, how your mind works or

Eanna (24:21.429)
We're matching then, okay, we're good.

Yeah.

Robert Peake (24:44.213)
Really anything that we've kind of covered today, stand out to you to maybe call.

Todd Brown (24:49.88)
Yeah, I mean, we're doing this recording in January as it happens. And I think it's a really good time, know, beginning of a new year to sort of ask some of these fundamental questions. And just in the way that, you've said you've been asking these of yourself and being open to the possibility that, you know, the way that you work changes. I just mentioned very briefly, I did coaching earlier in this week with somebody who has a completely different and he's also, by the way, neurodivergent.

And he's got a completely different way of working and his preferences and his, way that he, you know, the tools he wants to use are completely different than somebody that I'm working with beginning, you know, beginning later this afternoon, who's in much more of a sort of traditional corporate world with the traditional corporate tools and is very happy in that world. So be, be kind to your future self by accommodating your future self and know that what GTD brings to the table is just enough structure and just enough guidelines that will allow you to.

you know, back to back to what you said, Robert, to get to get more of what you want out of life. That's ultimately what we're trying

Robert Peake (25:54.903)
Great. And Eanna, any, any words of, encouragement maybe for those who are on a journey of self discovery alongside their journey of sort of GTD practice.

Eanna (26:00.275)
Yeah.

Eanna (26:08.309)
Yeah, I think embrace GTD GTD GTD I think it's fantastic. As you said, it's progress over perfection. know, take the bits that work for you. Attend the courses are brilliant. See, I mean, the book is there as a resource. Then the courses are fantastic. You learn more. And if you can do the coaching, it's just fantastic. mean, I've had the privilege of being coached by both of you. You both have different styles. I learned different things from both of you. And like I'm open to coaching in the future because one of the things I realise now is that it's not like a

one time you do something. This is a bit like, as I say, I like mindfulness. It calms me down. And it's like, I may need to do a course every two or three years to just get me back into it and to remind me, but it's worth investing in myself to do it. And it's the same with coaching. You know, I am very open to coming back again and when I need it. And especially like, as said, like I actually got promoted during my time coaching with Robert. So that was fantastic. Cause it's a bit like, you know, we got you there, won't get you here. So it's now like, I need to think about the next level. How do I?

change what I do, communicate. So yeah, just embrace it, go back, learn again. And yeah, just keep on the GTD journey.

Robert Peake (27:16.356)
Thank you so much for being with us. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and I'm glad. Hopefully those of you that were able to be fly on the wall in this conversation are taking away some encouragement, hope, and possibly some practical thoughts and ideas about how you can be kind to your future self, improve your individual effectiveness in ways that genuinely

work for you as an individual. That's a lot of the spirit of this and the point of this podcast. So please do obviously like and subscribe to get more of this from us and our colleagues. Visit us at next-action.co.uk, next-action.co.uk, that's us. You can get in touch. We always like to hear from people who are listening to this podcast. We take requests sometimes of themes and that kind of thing. So for now from

Todd and from me. Thanks for being here and special thanks to you, Eanna, for sharing your story with us and your time with us. I really enjoyed it. Hope you did too. And we'll see you next time.

Eanna (28:24.821)
Thank you.

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